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Facts You Deserve to Know. You can see details here in an awful pseudo-PDF format. If being choked out was known to produce injuries or deaths in training or competition, that sure would be a sign that we shouldn't do it. Yet, judo organizations keep good records, and we find the opposite. A judoka-doctor argues persuasively from empirical evidence that choking someone unconscious in the manner of judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu or modern no-gi grappling is reasonably safe:.
Since the advent of Judo, first developed by Professor Jigoro Kano in , no death directly attributed to choking has been reported.
There are four main reasons why fatalities do not occur:. Choking in Judo is safe because since the advent of Judo statistics show no fatality attributed to the shime-waza. Moreover, scientific studies on choking reveal no deleterious after effects.
Finally, the precautionary rules and methods used make the technique of choking a relatively safe means of subduing an opponent in competition. Source: E. Koiwai, M. Our dear doctor goes further, investigating a number of deaths due to law enforcement choking various persons, and finds:. In all 14 cases, this author has noted evidence of injuries to the structures of the neck from bruises, ecchymosis, hemorrhages to fractures of the cartilage of the neck Cases 1, 5, 10, 13, and 14 , and intervertebral discs Case 7.
He makes the point that these injuries suggest improper application of the choke, such that these should not be considered in the same category as actual judo techniques:. If the carotid artery hold is properly applied, unconsciousness occurs in approximately 10 seconds seconds. After release, the subject regains consciousness spontaneously in seconds. Neck pressure of mm of Hg or 5 kg of rope tension is required to occlude carotid arteries.
The amount of pressure to collapse the airway is six times greater. Owens and Ghiadiali present a contradicting possibility. From the abstract :. A case is presented of a patient with signs of anoxic brain damage, with psychometric investigation showing memory disturbance consistent with a left temporal lobe lesion. This patient had been frequently strangled during his career as a judo player; it is suggested that such frequent strangulation was the cause of the damage.
Such an observation indicates the need for caution in the use of such techniques. I do not have access to the full text. It is not clear that judo is well implicated in this case, nor do we know the extent to which this individual was choked out how often, how long, et cetera , nor can we extrapolate from this one data point.
Even being charitable, the conclusion to take from this case would be "don't be choked all the way to unconsciousness , and if you do, don't do it frequently ". NB: this is not shown , merely suggested as a cause for further research. There are some contraindications for being choked: heart conditions, hypertension, young kids.
But people who are choked out for ten or thirty seconds seem to be fine within five minutes, and certainly by the next day. Being choked out repeatedly would seem to be a bad idea. I'm not going to go out and try to get choked out.
But if it happens in the course of training or competing, the only thing I'm worried about is that someone notices before too much time passes. Students should know to pay attention to their partner and not hold onto a choke with a limp partner. Instructors should pay attention to students who are grappling, taking particular note of those caught in a choke, and make sure nobody holds on to a choke after the other person passes out.
These simple precautions have, according to the data, largely prevented choke-related serious injury in one of the world's most practiced martial arts. Normal practice of grappling chokes is almost entirely safe. One instance of being choked out and immediately resuscitated doesn't appear to have any serious negative consequences, say both anecdotes and the data.
This shouldn't be done in training to the point of unconsciousness as it can cause tissue damage and long term health issues.
Brain tissue can be damaged or die completely if CBF is partially or completely occluded causing ischemia. Although the person should pass out before damage occurs there could be underlying health concerns that may cause issues. When practicing BJJ, I always tap out before passing out: I just ensure there is the necessary tightness.
Personally, even under training conditions with supervision and the person releasing right away, I still would not want it to get to the point of passing out. There would have been a physical sign that your instructor had lost consciousness, like his muscles relaxing and possibly a slight change in posture.
You need to be considerably more aware than you were. You should only be taking your choke holds to this level when you have reached a level of proficiency, and part of that should be knowing how to handle the situation if unfortunate accidents happen. People will have different views on this, but personally I think it is important to know your technique inside out and back to front. Being choked out benefits both participants:.
Worth making the distinction between a blood choke and a air choke. Throat choking is a lot more dangerous because of the damage you can do to the actual throat.
Can cause swelling, etc and can cause people to die some time later. Blood chokes, less dangerous, but can still cause problems for people who are predisposed to various conditions. Similar kinds of risk as being hit in the head. Things can go wrong. Its worth knowing the first aide responses to the likely scenarios you might find yourself in. There are two types of chokes: a blood choke, in which blood flow to the brain is, at least temporarily, halted; and an air choke, in which compression to the trachea or chest stop airflow into the body, and thus oxygenation of the blood.
Both are inherently dangerous. During an air choke, excessive pressure can lead to the collapsing of the trachea or lungs, making it impossible for the victim to draw breath. Treatment for this is dependent upon the cause: a tracheotomy in the case of a collapsed trachea or chest tube in the case of pneumothorax may be required to reestablish breathing. Blood chokes, on the other hand, can in rare cases lead to the collapsing of arteries.
However, it should be noted that the greatest threat, cerebral anoxia, causes brain cell death after 4 to 6 sustained minutes. All other dangers are minute in comparison, and odds are against long term damage or death.
That said, it's worth remembering that even a simple hematoma bruise can cause death a clot can break away and cause a stroke or heart attack or other infarction , and training in any sort of martial art should be treated with the respect it deserves. In an article by Jay Wiseman , who is, in his own words:. I was an ambulance crewman for over eight years. I attended medical school for three years, and passed my four-year boards, then ran out of money.
I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked. The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain.
Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.
So why can this happen? When denied oxygen, the heart contracts at multiple sites, usually in the ventricular region causing "premature ventricular contractions" or PVCs. In the event that a PVC occurs during a phase in which ventricular depolarization is occurring called PVC-on-T or R-on-T , then ventricular fibrillation a form of cardiac arrest can occur.
The more PVCs occur, the higher a likelihood of an R-on-T event, and thus the higher a likelihood that event will trigger cardiac arrest. This build-up of acid can shift the pH lower. Since both the increase of blood carbon-dioxide and decrease of blood oxygen lower the pH, the effects of suffocation can cause the pH to plummet.
As a former LAPD police man who went through academy training in the early 70s, I can give testimony about the bar arm control hold and its effects, on other police cadets and myself as well. We were taught to know what to do when gaining consciousness, how to identify by hearing, where our main threat was man with a gun and how to proceed.
Naturally in order to do that, we were choked out no less than 20 times during training. We were trained to use the bar arm control hold, which consisted in turning the adversary around from a frontal position, by keeping our gun leg back, extending our left hand inches beyond his right arm and hitting and pushing his right shoulder hard.
Well applied, this maneuver resulted in turning the person around, into the cutting side of our right forearm, while our left hand was locked on to our right one, applying force to the subject's neck pressing him aginst our chest.
Ounce that maneuver was done, his arched body was taken down hard to the ground by retrieving our left leg. If the choke hold was well applied, he was supposed to be out by the time he hit the floor. When the choke hold was applied to me by training officers, supposedly experts in martial art, it was not painful at all.
It was swift and quick, because the martial arts expert, maintained at all times the pressure on the neck and of course there was no resistance from the me, since this was just a demonstration. The problem started when the choke hold was applied by trainee to trainee in an effort to get it right.
In my class, at least two persons were taken out of the field by ambulance, and one was never seen again. In my case, weeks after wrestling classmates ussually 40 to 60 pounds heavier than me, and being choked out almost daily, or even choking out some classmate, I started to have migraines, vertigo, pain and stiffness of neck and other symptoms.
I reported all these to my superiors at the academy, but complaining about pain was not part of the job description, so I went on to graduate and stayed on the job for about 7 years. Eventually I was given a stress IOD type pension.
An evaluation by a Neurologist was performed a couple of years ago, and subsequent testing brain and cervical MRIs and xrays revealed significant and important lesions from c3 to c7. These lesions are congruent with a great amount of pressure applied to my neck.
They are degenarative, and may be the cause of headaches, sleep paralysis, and a whole series of symptoms, that are often confused with stress and other psychological ailments. To conclude this commentary, let me just emphasize that choke holds applied by martial arts experts may result and minimal to no permanent lesions, but the barm arm control hold, or the caratoid version, use in law enforcement by officers, even when it is well intended to just control and avoid lethal force, is not being applied by experts, nor to persons that may tap out, which may lead to: death I respectully advised retired or active officers to consider my experience and seek profesional neurological evaluation when faced with headaches, tingling sensation of back of head, hands and feet, pain on back of legs, unsteady gait, urinary incontinence of any type, pain in lower back that extends to gluteus, even lose of sexual drive.
In my humble opinion any officer who went through the barm arm experience and lost of consciousness at the academy, should have a neurological evaluation and testing. The same advice goes to any person, whom might have been choked out, lost consciousness and is know exprience some of this symptoms.
The only answer that can be given is that it is very dangerous. The reason for this is that everyone has different biological and physical toughness and you, as their opponent, cannot make any valid guess as to how much they can take. And the truth is that they wouldn't know either if they were honest. Back when I was young and stupid, I used to tough out chokes on a regular basis. I look back and cringe at that behaviour.
Thankfully, I always erred on the side of caution when attempting such a move on my opponent and would discontinue my attack if I thought they were trying to tough it out themselves. I have been penalised for this in contests, but I'll take the points against me rather than the possibility of a life of regret that I didn't stop sooner. There's a reason what we do is called "martial" arts. We learn very efficient ways to kill people.
With great power comes great responsibility. That's not just a movie quote, it's an honest to goodness fact. Always err on the side of not hurting your opponent. The distinction between "blood choke" and "air choke" does not make sense from a medical point of view, especially when unconsciousness is involved.
Any form of unconsciousness is perilous in a sense of "possibly lethal". You are entirely right about feeling scared, unconsciousness is scary. Also, secondary effects e. Certainly, not everybody who goes unconscious for a moment dies, but it's something you cannot safely assert at that moment.
Hyperextension of the neck as learned as one of the basic measures in every first aid course is helpful in such a situation, it literally saves lives.
It's the first thing you want to do when someone doesn't come back within a few seconds. Since you said you wouldn't have known what to do, this is a valuable thing to look into. It may not display this or other websites correctly. You should upgrade or use an alternative browser. Thread starter Andre Start date Jul 29, I was thinking about this based on some stuff Warwand wrote about RNC's in another thread. In MMA, obviously we see tons of chokes that are held long enough to render a fighter unconscious.
As Warwand says, it can take as little as about 3 seconds for someone to go to sleep if they are not defending. My question is, how long would you have to hold a choke for there to be a realistic chance that the person could die. Is it possible that if a ref was snoozing and just got there a few seconds too late, someone could be choked to death?
Or at least suffer brain damage? Would it take a different amount of time depending on whether it was a blood choke or an air choke? On a sidenote, wouldn't a really tight RNC be both an air choke and a blood choke?
Can I proofread it? Or are you prosecuting a serial choker? Or are you just getting more and more morbid? If you deprive the brain of oxygen, the person will rapidly lose consciousness. If you hold a blood choke for even a few seconds, a fighter will go unconscious. They will usually wake right up when blood flow is restored, but they may be a little groggy or have a headache. If they keep breathing and there is no air choke, they can maintain normal blood oxygen and get it to the heart and other vital organs.
Then, when you let go of the choke, they won't be breathing and they could get into serious trouble. BTW, you can absolutely compress both carotid arteries blood choke without compressing the airway. Just put the fingers of your right hand on one carotid pulse in your neck and your thumb on the other.
Push directly backwards towards your spine. You will compress the blood vessels and the trachea will be uncompressed up against the palm of your hand. Pretty cool, but you can faint if you try this. Make sure you are sitting down, that a friend is with you, and that you don't have any hardening of those arteries. I'm so tempted Doc, I'm so tempted
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